Unarmed models

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Andrea Sfiligoi
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Unarmed models

Unread postby Andrea Sfiligoi » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:39 am

This is how I fixed the "what is an unarmed model" conundrum. Since we have abilities that disarm, we needed to clarify which attack forms are weapon based. What do you say?

Unarmed Models
If a model is disarmed, reduce his C by 1 in melee only and ignore any Trait based on his weapon until he spends one action recovering the weapon. Weapon-based traits are marked by a (W) in the trait’s name. Note that an unarmed model with a martial arts traits (marked with a MA in the Trait’s name) does NOT suffer this modifier.
Note that a model which is represented wielding a weapon may still be disarmed and suffers the -1 modifier even if he has no weapon-based trait.




Jcrozier
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Jcrozier » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:36 pm

Just to clarify: is the weapon still going to end up 1 Short away? And if so, does the character need to move to recover it AND spend an action picking it up? If so, he'll be exposed to free hacks, presumably.

As I said in the other thread, I'd allow figures with an obvious second weapon to draw it at a cost of one action. But for those who don't (or if the weapon has some special trait - a Heavy Weapon, for example), I'd rule that the character has to move to recover it (so a character who doesn't want to face a free hack might well fight on unarmed to avoid free hacks). Of course, this, being model-based, is putting aesthetics above "balance"!



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Andrea Sfiligoi
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Andrea Sfiligoi » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:10 pm

A whole can of worms is opened when introducing weapons into the game. Probably the simplest thing to do is to do away with the Disarming abilities. They are cool and cinematic but require messing with a lot of details...




Jcrozier
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Jcrozier » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:30 pm

I'd keep the abilities in if I were you. Could you add something along these lines?

"The disarmed character now fights as Unarmed (-1). If the model is carrying an obvious second weapon, it needs to spend one action to draw it. If not, it must either fight on Unarmed or move to where its weapon landed (which will entail a free hack if it is still in combat). When the model reaches its weapon, it must spend an action to pick it up. A weapon can also be picked up from a dead foe. For simplicity's sake, the Disarm trait applies only to melee weapons (though players can agree to extend it to missile weapons if they wish)"

I'm greatly in favour of rules that hinge on what the miniature looks like rather than attempting to be fair in all circumstances!




Jcrozier
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Jcrozier » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:30 pm

And I also think that "cool and cinematic" trumps details every time!



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Andrea Sfiligoi
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Andrea Sfiligoi » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:51 pm

I could add something similar but secondary weapons also open another can of worms. Basically we are giving a small advantage to figures sculpted in a certain way, and this will lead to some players taking advantage of that and endless discussions on the game table.

Let's say a character is depicted with a weapon and a secondary weapon on his belt. Can he use a weapon based trait with the secondary weapon? say I bought Shieldbreaker for a character with an axe who also has a sword on his belt. If he is disarmed and draws the sword, can he still use shieldbreaker? And what about dual wielders?

This is why games are either ability based or equipment based. SOBH is ability based - you pay the points, you can do that effect, no matter what that effect is representing. You want a secondary weapon? Then a secondary weapon trait must be created...




Jcrozier
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Jcrozier » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:33 pm

I entirely take your point: it is endless cans of worms (Russian dolls of worms? A bottomless worm pit?). And the ability vs equipment point is very clear (although I think you have sometimes made exceptions to this - Signature Weapon, for example, in FFKF). But I think the (admirable) ethos you promote in your games is the answer to these problems. Common sense and a cooperative spirit allow these things to work.

I'd say that traits like Heavy Weapon, Huge Weapon, Long Reach, Shieldbreaker and Flail self-evidently apply to the model's primary weapon. So if that goes, the model can either draw a secondary weapon if it has one or risk a free hack (or exploit a recoil) to recover its main weapon. Isn't that how it works in Fistful of Kung Fu? I recall having an oni chief (actually an orc, but never mind!) with Signature Weapon. We ruled that that was his axe; when he was disarmed, he lost the trait until he recovered the weapon, although he had a scimitar to use in the meantime.

Of course, if you have an orc with a two-handed axe and a flail in his belt, he should pay points for both Heavy Weapon and Flail (if he's going to use it) and be able to switch between when not in combat (or spend an action dropping the axe and drawing the flail). If you have an orc with Huge Weapon, I think it would be uncontroversial to allow him to drop it and switch to a scimitar in a particular situation (if his loss would lead to a morale test for the warband, for example).

Dual wielders are an interesting problem (not helped by the fact that ridiculous examples are far too common in fantasy miniatures! ;)). But I'd treat a dual wielder as still having to "draw" his secondary weapon (swap hands, adjust, etc) if he wanted to avoid Unarmed status. And he'd lose Block if he had it (if he remained Unarmed, he could keep Block).

I know that that's all "ragged round the edges", but I think the cinematic qualities you identify are too good to pass up! And for me at least, a little on-the-spot tinkering to allow for odd situations as they arise is part of the fun.




Marc Gacy
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Marc Gacy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:43 pm

What about making Disarm itself a special ability? That way, it is used by those who want to do that and it could state in its rule that those with 'martial arts' special rules are immune to Disarm. For SBH-based games, I like adding complexity through Special rules as opposed to general rules additions.
Also there could be a 2 point ability -
Good grip: The model uses only natural weapons like claws, has a particularly good grip on their weapon, or has a readily available second weapon. Whatever the reason, the Model cannot be disarmed.



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Andrea Sfiligoi
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Andrea Sfiligoi » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:04 pm

Marc it is already a special ability. Disarming Block. This is why it would be easy to take out all the complexity it generates just by removing that rule.




Marc Gacy
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Re: Unarmed models

Unread postby Marc Gacy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:54 pm

Ah, I thought there might be a general rule I missed since Disarming Block requires a shield, and I don't often think of disarming requiring a shield.




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